1 00:00:13,73 --> 00:00:14,16 Way. 2 00:00:16,83 --> 00:00:32,37 We 3 00:00:32,38 --> 00:00:32,40 are. 4 00:00:40,01 --> 00:00:44,11 Welcome to the League of Women Voters program brought to you by the Columbia 5 00:00:44,12 --> 00:00:49,48 Missouri League I mean Lang Blodgett Tonight's program is about T.D.'s 6 00:00:49,71 --> 00:00:54,86 transportation development districts and similar entities it's about all the 7 00:00:54,87 --> 00:00:59,30 different kinds of financing solutions that are being used today than volved both 8 00:00:59,31 --> 00:01:04,40 the private and public and the. Participating in our discussion of three very 9 00:01:04,63 --> 00:01:11,53 qualified citizens of Columbia Craig Van Matri attorney at law Dale 10 00:01:11,54 --> 00:01:17,68 Whitman professor of law at the University of Missouri and Bill watt consistent 11 00:01:17,69 --> 00:01:24,18 city manager welcome. Let's get started with Krag opening for us in 12 00:01:24,19 --> 00:01:25,80 explaining what is a T.D. 13 00:01:25,81 --> 00:01:28,58 Day well a crash development district is 14 00:01:28,59 --> 00:01:34,76 a way for in effect public money to be raised for public infrastructure in 15 00:01:34,77 --> 00:01:37,40 connection with a private development it's 16 00:01:37,41 --> 00:01:39,81 a creature of the Missouri statutes there are 17 00:01:39,82 --> 00:01:46,55 a group of maybe one hundred separate sections in the Missouri statutes that say 18 00:01:46,61 --> 00:01:51,92 if you follow the rules and play the game this way then you can establish 19 00:01:52,39 --> 00:01:56,97 a separate tax district is really not anything new because people had things like 20 00:01:56,98 --> 00:02:03,28 public water supply districts and special ROAD districts for years to do that which 21 00:02:03,29 --> 00:02:08,91 requires more money perhaps than a private individual to contribute towards 22 00:02:08,92 --> 00:02:15,92 a particular road or sewer line and or. Or something on OWN those lines and yet 23 00:02:15,93 --> 00:02:22,64 which. In effect allows the developer to push the process 24 00:02:22,65 --> 00:02:27,11 forward much more rapidly than otherwise would be the case Craig when you talk 25 00:02:27,12 --> 00:02:30,58 about these special benefit districts that T.D.D. 26 00:02:30,59 --> 00:02:33,19 Is a little different than that is it in the sense that with 27 00:02:33,20 --> 00:02:38,28 a special benefit district we normally just assess the property owners and they pay 28 00:02:38,32 --> 00:02:42,38 paid just for a year that might be over a five or ten year period but they write 29 00:02:42,39 --> 00:02:43,55 a check in the T.V. 30 00:02:43,56 --> 00:02:48,77 Deal on the other hand but it's really coming out of the retail customers who buy 31 00:02:48,78 --> 00:02:53,51 products in the retail stores within the district and so they're really paying the 32 00:02:53,52 --> 00:02:57,02 freight for the improvements in the infrastructure so we're talking about 33 00:02:57,03 --> 00:03:01,58 a special taxing district you bet all right and when we're talking about 34 00:03:01,59 --> 00:03:07,29 infrastructure we're talking about road sewers all the bases actually not sewers 35 00:03:07,45 --> 00:03:11,49 because now you just road segment out with this transportation that's right so 36 00:03:11,50 --> 00:03:17,57 where you are going to asses and saw. Anything related to our anger I got to be 37 00:03:17,58 --> 00:03:22,29 related to transportation and we're talking sales tax on. So you can do property 38 00:03:22,30 --> 00:03:26,90 tax the reviews are actual assessments and I think you're going to see some of that 39 00:03:26,91 --> 00:03:30,79 in the future I think it's come into that it's it's there's 40 00:03:30,80 --> 00:03:37,74 a political dimension to that there's economic dimension to the so far the tv's in 41 00:03:37,75 --> 00:03:42,31 Colombia haven't assessed anything other than the sales tax rate and the rate of 42 00:03:42,32 --> 00:03:47,75 tax that they assess is just been an additional half cent because of political 43 00:03:47,76 --> 00:03:53,16 pressure from the city the city doesn't really have as much political power over 44 00:03:53,17 --> 00:03:58,83 T.V.'s as they would want when you see Bill reuniting is in the grizzly that they 45 00:03:58,84 --> 00:04:00,97 would like to have a lot more control over T.B.S. 46 00:04:01,10 --> 00:04:05,17 But they do have to approve it you know not really but they want to go through the 47 00:04:05,18 --> 00:04:07,00 process we've got to back up 48 00:04:07,01 --> 00:04:11,89 a little bit as you can tell you all know what you're talking about but now I have 49 00:04:11,90 --> 00:04:17,28 to represent the public who's going OK what are we talking about to get started 50 00:04:17,29 --> 00:04:22,44 it's in the state it's in the state law right let's get in this and it's been and 51 00:04:22,45 --> 00:04:26,12 this type of developments been in there for about since one thousand nine hundred 52 00:04:26,60 --> 00:04:33,52 ninety ninety right and it made the other away you know I gave her some ideas OK So 53 00:04:33,73 --> 00:04:38,19 what happens when are can you give a good example of 54 00:04:38,52 --> 00:04:42,92 a place that's done this how how they went through the process maybe we'll come to 55 00:04:42,93 --> 00:04:43,43 you is actually 56 00:04:43,44 --> 00:04:47,52 a pretty good example because we have I guess the eight of them currently approved 57 00:04:47,53 --> 00:04:51,100 bill is that right around the tenth one the application just came in writing we're 58 00:04:52,01 --> 00:04:55,66 likely to see some more I mean this Thursday I'm going to go for the circuit court 59 00:04:55,71 --> 00:05:00,62 to try to get another one formed OK so it's something that the developer often 60 00:05:00,63 --> 00:05:04,63 times it doesn't have to be I don't know of Burke but that's all the ones we are. 61 00:05:05,82 --> 00:05:11,72 Were generated by developers OK so what what's the decision that the developer in 62 00:05:11,85 --> 00:05:16,30 Columbia has to make about why he or she would want to do a T.V. 63 00:05:16,31 --> 00:05:18,49 Day you know it's 64 00:05:18,50 --> 00:05:25,02 a easy computation. The developer looks at the deal and says this project 65 00:05:25,14 --> 00:05:31,86 this tract of land works much better for customer convenience attractiveness if 66 00:05:31,87 --> 00:05:37,40 there are better roads and better access to the site better in effect 67 00:05:37,41 --> 00:05:42,15 transportation amenities now the Missouri statutes allow for 68 00:05:42,16 --> 00:05:48,07 a variety of different kinds of special tax districts to be created and when the 69 00:05:48,08 --> 00:05:54,03 city says they don't have much control reside like. Oh it's true that legally they 70 00:05:54,04 --> 00:05:56,29 don't as a practical matter they do have quite 71 00:05:56,30 --> 00:06:00,45 a bit of control they've got the authority of the city and the fact that they're It 72 00:06:00,46 --> 00:06:00,88 tends to be 73 00:06:00,89 --> 00:06:05,96 a relatively closed group of people that do things and continually petition the 74 00:06:05,97 --> 00:06:11,38 city in and you just know that if you don't generally satisfied the city with 75 00:06:11,39 --> 00:06:15,04 respect to what they want that they will they will remember the institutional 76 00:06:15,05 --> 00:06:21,38 memory as long and builds memory is very good. You have filed the first T.D. 77 00:06:21,42 --> 00:06:25,32 Application in Columbia to John and I didn't file the first one I got the first one 78 00:06:25,33 --> 00:06:30,03 Set up OK but there was one set up at Lake of the woods Well there's the first one 79 00:06:30,04 --> 00:06:33,81 was advantage at center stage oh that's right and then later the Woodson and I 80 00:06:33,82 --> 00:06:37,63 think we were certain we were the first that that actually started collecting taxes 81 00:06:37,64 --> 00:06:40,80 and doing something with it but what I know that we think of the woods has been 82 00:06:40,81 --> 00:06:41,82 collecting taxes for 83 00:06:41,83 --> 00:06:45,85 a long time and when you did that to see store it picked up the seashore at the 84 00:06:45,86 --> 00:06:49,36 very beginning the first one I did was shops in stating which was the biz came all 85 00:06:49,57 --> 00:06:55,50 right OK let's work with that one cuz OK all of us go down there on stadium and 86 00:06:55,51 --> 00:06:55,74 that's 87 00:06:55,75 --> 00:07:01,76 a wide shopping area. It was decided that there were some road improvements I assume 88 00:07:01,77 --> 00:07:08,21 that had to be made in that area so. Some kind of 89 00:07:08,22 --> 00:07:12,29 corporation in order to do it Transportation did fell upon district my 90 00:07:12,30 --> 00:07:14,33 understanding is that it's called 91 00:07:14,34 --> 00:07:18,86 a political entity which means somewhere along the line somebody had to set 92 00:07:18,87 --> 00:07:23,66 something up and then what did they next have to go through OK here's the steps 93 00:07:23,67 --> 00:07:26,29 that you followed didn't catch you can set up 94 00:07:26,30 --> 00:07:30,20 a transportation available district I could do one of my backyard would do any good 95 00:07:30,24 --> 00:07:32,12 because I want retail sales done 96 00:07:32,13 --> 00:07:36,07 a lot of retail sales going to it but the special assessments could be I could and 97 00:07:36,08 --> 00:07:40,14 I could assess but that's ten cents per one hundred dollars and no the special 98 00:07:40,15 --> 00:07:41,19 assessment doesn't have 99 00:07:41,20 --> 00:07:46,68 a. Job and I was sad at the time especially with estimates as they're not about K. 100 00:07:46,69 --> 00:07:50,29 So you're going to set up around things so you know what I mean set up 101 00:07:50,30 --> 00:07:53,23 a corporation of some snow or that the district is 102 00:07:53,24 --> 00:07:59,36 a separate political subdivision all cats like a water supply district OK has 103 00:07:59,37 --> 00:08:05,87 a separate in effect in it the that the statute says if you follow the procedures 104 00:08:05,88 --> 00:08:07,10 in the procedure in this case 105 00:08:07,11 --> 00:08:11,93 a first thing you do is you have to get everybody who lives on this particular 106 00:08:11,94 --> 00:08:18,39 tract to vote if nobody lives there then the owner of the property gets to vote 107 00:08:18,68 --> 00:08:22,61 based on one vote per acre so let's say you've got 108 00:08:22,62 --> 00:08:27,53 a developer who's got forty acres He's got forty votes if he's the only owner and 109 00:08:27,54 --> 00:08:32,56 then he petitions a circuit court the circuit court then has 110 00:08:32,57 --> 00:08:37,00 a hearing and decide whether or not it's in the public's best interest to create 111 00:08:37,01 --> 00:08:43,41 this district and then when the judge enters that decree forming the district he 112 00:08:43,42 --> 00:08:44,25 specifies 113 00:08:44,26 --> 00:08:48,49 a date when they'll be an election of the property owner to elect directors and the 114 00:08:48,50 --> 00:08:50,76 directors of that in 115 00:08:50,77 --> 00:08:55,54 a tee which are for all practical purposes selected by the property owner can 116 00:08:55,55 --> 00:09:01,51 property owners one voting for these directly. The directors then meet and they 117 00:09:01,52 --> 00:09:08,51 govern the entity they assess the tax and they collect it although in 118 00:09:08,71 --> 00:09:11,99 my case every single one of the ones I've collected I made 119 00:09:12,00 --> 00:09:16,76 a deal with the city and this is where the city's leverage comes in Incidentally I 120 00:09:16,77 --> 00:09:16,93 made 121 00:09:16,94 --> 00:09:22,58 a deal with the city that the city would collect the tax and remit it to the various 122 00:09:22,59 --> 00:09:27,35 purposes of the district including paying off bonds so when the city gets the 123 00:09:27,36 --> 00:09:31,08 regular tax revenues that they're entitled to they also collect the T.V. 124 00:09:31,09 --> 00:09:34,71 Revenues and keep it in their bank account until for any of these but rather than 125 00:09:34,72 --> 00:09:35,42 that to do D. 126 00:09:35,43 --> 00:09:39,48 Which could keep it narrow bank account I already have one that does that and there 127 00:09:39,49 --> 00:09:39,79 is always 128 00:09:39,80 --> 00:09:46,00 a there is one it told me there are now how do I have the republics now. How do we 129 00:09:46,01 --> 00:09:50,26 as the public know when for example that's been paid off is there's 130 00:09:50,27 --> 00:09:55,48 a special account right well that these monies are put in so not necessarily the 131 00:09:55,49 --> 00:09:59,65 know the street by law can last for forty years typically the only lasts as long as 132 00:09:59,66 --> 00:10:04,65 it takes to pay off their debt they incur to build the improvements that they were 133 00:10:04,79 --> 00:10:10,83 formed to to fund in the first place OK So that would come ten years I 134 00:10:11,46 --> 00:10:12,27 know him 135 00:10:12,31 --> 00:10:17,68 a little short one hundred twenty but the district can also change the scope of the 136 00:10:17,69 --> 00:10:21,64 improvements and add more that's right and in fact the center state district is 137 00:10:21,65 --> 00:10:26,12 talking about doing that right Dow on some improvements on the other side of sixty 138 00:10:26,13 --> 00:10:31,75 three so that essentially they'd sell bonds in year one but they may come back if 139 00:10:31,76 --> 00:10:36,78 they have additional development they can support additional bonds can sell bonds 140 00:10:36,79 --> 00:10:40,75 in Year seven and that would be because they've got more retail sales they've got 141 00:10:40,76 --> 00:10:44,64 totally first part of the project was successful that's correct tracking customer 142 00:10:44,68 --> 00:10:49,36 that's going to depend on what jurisdiction the story does and for example as to 143 00:10:49,37 --> 00:10:51,95 who they're dealing with yes the T.D. 144 00:10:51,96 --> 00:10:58,88 Day Yes the statute says that mode out must approve all T.D.'s in practical 145 00:10:59,14 --> 00:11:04,98 application if there is no mo dot St and there they don't get too interested OK. 146 00:11:06,46 --> 00:11:08,65 If it's on a local story for instance 147 00:11:08,66 --> 00:11:14,97 a city street then the city must approve it OK now this is why I said that the 148 00:11:14,98 --> 00:11:19,56 city's got approval power well but they only have approval power on the project on 149 00:11:19,57 --> 00:11:24,23 the actual tangible work that's right it's only because they're working on the city 150 00:11:24,27 --> 00:11:30,87 right of way. OK For instance to Craig's project the shops initially did no work 151 00:11:31,25 --> 00:11:37,42 on the city right of way and so mowed up approve the plans not the city because we 152 00:11:37,43 --> 00:11:39,31 were going to a stadium or work in the market not 153 00:11:39,32 --> 00:11:45,35 a whole of I saw another good example of it would be the one that we did for the 154 00:11:45,36 --> 00:11:49,18 grindstone Plaza right in that particular T. D. 155 00:11:49,42 --> 00:11:53,27 Is going to pay the city back for the entire cost to put in Green Mill Road from 156 00:11:53,28 --> 00:11:58,86 Providence all we were to do so that'll be a the city will get back about 157 00:11:58,87 --> 00:11:59,25 a million and 158 00:11:59,26 --> 00:12:03,84 a half bucks that right laid out for that road is there any auditing process that 159 00:12:03,85 --> 00:12:08,79 goes on this year anyway for the public to like attend the meetings or to see him 160 00:12:08,80 --> 00:12:15,07 on how all the provisions of the Sunshine Law and local government are applicable 161 00:12:15,12 --> 00:12:20,66 to T.D.'s meetings are posted are they posted where one would say the Maurice was 162 00:12:20,67 --> 00:12:25,71 terrible that that is on a door on a building is a weakness OK I give Craig 163 00:12:25,75 --> 00:12:32,21 a lot of credit because he has always posted all of the meetings with the city on 164 00:12:32,22 --> 00:12:37,65 the city's official bulletin board not all of our T.D.'s do that all right and we 165 00:12:37,74 --> 00:12:42,48 always had all or all the T.D.'s I represent have their meetings at city hall we 166 00:12:42,49 --> 00:12:47,08 post the notice that the city hall we give Bill and the people at the office there 167 00:12:47,12 --> 00:12:53,98 at the city offices notice of the meeting and. We're trying to be as good neighbors 168 00:12:53,99 --> 00:12:56,29 as we can given the fact that there is sort of 169 00:12:56,30 --> 00:13:02,36 a tension here between the developed members the developers who want. These 170 00:13:02,37 --> 00:13:09,35 projects done and they they would if they could spill over and use that money for 171 00:13:09,36 --> 00:13:15,25 more than would be quote purely public in the city who thinks of the tax revenues 172 00:13:15,26 --> 00:13:21,68 as being really theirs that they're grudgingly required to let us use and they want 173 00:13:21,69 --> 00:13:24,13 to make sure that it's used in the right way so that nobody gets 174 00:13:24,14 --> 00:13:26,01 a go for now doesn't T.T.T. 175 00:13:26,40 --> 00:13:32,16 Get all of the tax revenues in that area that it covers are just 176 00:13:32,17 --> 00:13:35,23 a percentage it the P.T.T. 177 00:13:35,24 --> 00:13:37,37 Has to set a tax rate 178 00:13:37,38 --> 00:13:41,30 a sales tax rate which could be as high as one percent of all car on top of 179 00:13:41,31 --> 00:13:44,46 whatever I'm not talking or whatever is all rating and all about one city the 180 00:13:44,47 --> 00:13:50,25 county in the state and so currently in Colombia what it will be at seven point 181 00:13:50,62 --> 00:13:56,69 three D. Or five I think four or five OK so so T.D.D. 182 00:13:56,70 --> 00:14:01,40 You would balance that potentially by as much as one percent but in fact I think 183 00:14:01,44 --> 00:14:04,13 all of our T.D.'s have gone only to 184 00:14:04,14 --> 00:14:10,51 a half of one percent on the sales tax and maybe the city furs and obviously that 185 00:14:10,55 --> 00:14:15,66 there's also the potential for some customer resistance if the sales tax gets too 186 00:14:15,67 --> 00:14:20,52 high in fact I was thinking about this in terms of just being an ordinary retail 187 00:14:20,53 --> 00:14:21,81 customer if I want to buy 188 00:14:22,13 --> 00:14:26,17 a big ticket item where the sales tax actually could amount to 189 00:14:26,18 --> 00:14:31,42 a significant amount of money well I might decide to go across the street outside 190 00:14:31,43 --> 00:14:34,93 the T.D. And save that sales tax and if it's 191 00:14:34,94 --> 00:14:38,85 a one percent and let's say I'm not going to buy a big screen T.V. 192 00:14:38,86 --> 00:14:44,16 My wife won't let me but if I did and I spent say three thousand dollars on it well 193 00:14:44,17 --> 00:14:49,99 that's thirty dollars of sales tax and naturally if it were one percent and I might 194 00:14:50,00 --> 00:14:54,51 prefer to go someplace where I don't have to pay that extra thirty dollars and half 195 00:14:54,52 --> 00:14:58,13 a percent it's not so much. After all 196 00:14:58,14 --> 00:15:04,28 a retailer has to think about whether their customers will be put off by having to 197 00:15:04,29 --> 00:15:08,97 pay that we knew our Exactly right every single one of my clients tenants any 198 00:15:09,09 --> 00:15:13,45 consequence is most uncomfortable with the fact that they've got to pay 199 00:15:13,74 --> 00:15:19,30 a little bit more in tax then someone across the street and they want to be in 200 00:15:19,31 --> 00:15:21,52 a consistent taxed history because they think it'll put them in 201 00:15:21,53 --> 00:15:24,99 a competitive disadvantage if you only spend twenty dollars no matter but if you're 202 00:15:25,00 --> 00:15:29,00 spending two hundred or two thousand dollars then you're after 203 00:15:29,01 --> 00:15:32,48 a while talking about real money and what does any markets for her binaries you do 204 00:15:32,49 --> 00:15:37,22 know what the what the taxing districts are waiting to go to shop for big ticket so 205 00:15:37,23 --> 00:15:42,22 that's another reason I think that the. Rate has been kept out a half 206 00:15:42,23 --> 00:15:45,96 a percent just because of that feeling you don't want to price yourself out of the 207 00:15:45,97 --> 00:15:51,07 market with additional sales but the primary reason is the cities of the city which 208 00:15:51,08 --> 00:15:53,93 is belief that if it were more than a half 209 00:15:53,94 --> 00:15:59,40 a cent that they would have problems getting future tax extensions or increases 210 00:15:59,41 --> 00:16:01,07 past and I think we saw 211 00:16:01,08 --> 00:16:04,78 a little of that last November at least that was an issue I never heard it 212 00:16:04,79 --> 00:16:05,69 articulated as 213 00:16:05,70 --> 00:16:09,49 a reason why people voted against it I did I think both Bill and I think I heard it 214 00:16:09,50 --> 00:16:15,12 a number of service clubs that people said well you say the current tax if this 215 00:16:15,13 --> 00:16:19,21 path this is the proposition five which would have been an additional one eight 216 00:16:19,22 --> 00:16:26,15 percent tax and we would say well it will only be seven point four seven 217 00:16:26,16 --> 00:16:29,75 point five something some point four seven five something like that there's Yeah 218 00:16:29,76 --> 00:16:33,12 but you're not counting the transportation to develop it just hurts right and there 219 00:16:33,13 --> 00:16:36,61 are already eight of them and they charge an additional half 220 00:16:36,62 --> 00:16:41,41 a percent so you're not really giving us the full impact of what this will be on 221 00:16:41,42 --> 00:16:48,01 top of that and of course at last it failed but to say the cause and effect was the 222 00:16:48,21 --> 00:16:51,56 tax and they could not direct it was what I would if it was it was a factor or 223 00:16:51,61 --> 00:16:57,46 a fact and I believe it at least from my perspective that one of the lessons from 224 00:16:57,88 --> 00:17:02,59 November eighth was that people just don't want to pay more tax Yes and that there 225 00:17:02,60 --> 00:17:02,81 is 226 00:17:02,82 --> 00:17:08,89 a limit to what people will pay and we're pretty close to it was that old rule years 227 00:17:08,90 --> 00:17:15,60 ago when they said temper Sam. Was about the maximum you could ask and saliency my 228 00:17:15,61 --> 00:17:19,63 sister did he say that around here is Americans used to be seven and we were always 229 00:17:19,64 --> 00:17:23,35 a little nervous about going over seventy seven but but the interesting thing about 230 00:17:23,36 --> 00:17:23,93 the D.V.D. 231 00:17:23,94 --> 00:17:30,36 Is the voters at large don't vote on it. If you will be exempt from the Hancock 232 00:17:30,37 --> 00:17:34,96 that well they vote with their feet that's right if they decide not to patronize 233 00:17:34,97 --> 00:17:39,01 that retailer do you know in all blame vote for it in all practicality you go in 234 00:17:39,02 --> 00:17:44,59 Columbia there will be probably by the end of next year very few major retail 235 00:17:45,49 --> 00:17:47,69 outlets that are in a T.D.D. 236 00:17:48,85 --> 00:17:54,27 Particularly if you look in terms of percentage of sales. You know probably. 237 00:17:55,77 --> 00:17:56,25 Hazard 238 00:17:56,52 --> 00:18:01,60 a guess but I'll be sure it's well over seventy percent of retail sales are going 239 00:18:01,61 --> 00:18:02,15 to be in 240 00:18:02,29 --> 00:18:06,60 a transportation development let me put you on the spot here because an equivalent 241 00:18:06,61 --> 00:18:13,36 statutory scheme Jean. Yes I use the term going to sites as well 242 00:18:13,37 --> 00:18:18,39 that's just what I think we've got going again will instead stories is 243 00:18:18,40 --> 00:18:21,08 a Community Improvement District that's correct which has 244 00:18:21,09 --> 00:18:25,70 a broader range of projects that you can spend months very on exactly the same set 245 00:18:25,71 --> 00:18:31,55 up except that it's established by municipal ordinance right but again don't you 246 00:18:31,56 --> 00:18:31,95 have to have 247 00:18:31,96 --> 00:18:36,12 a vote the vote though again is of the properties of the property owners you have 248 00:18:36,13 --> 00:18:41,00 to have one of majority of the property owners to his own I could have with each 249 00:18:41,01 --> 00:18:46,78 one of these T.D.'s we set up having to see ID instead of Community Improvement 250 00:18:46,79 --> 00:18:47,89 history and had 251 00:18:47,90 --> 00:18:53,73 a broader range of projects that we could build. All the public nature that's 252 00:18:53,74 --> 00:18:57,38 correct so what do you think the city's attitudes are going to be towards formation 253 00:18:57,39 --> 00:18:58,97 of cods in lieu of T.V. 254 00:18:58,98 --> 00:19:03,15 These the cities they have greater control Well I think that was what we used as 255 00:19:03,21 --> 00:19:08,90 really the stick in trying to pull people together on stadium we said guys isn't 256 00:19:08,91 --> 00:19:15,73 fair you can't have some in and some out paying for. The stadium and permits 257 00:19:15,95 --> 00:19:18,00 and unless everybody decides to play in 258 00:19:18,01 --> 00:19:23,30 a sandbox the city will come in and we will impose a C. ID C. 259 00:19:23,31 --> 00:19:28,28 ID also has some unique opportunities in terms of property taxes and I think you'll 260 00:19:28,29 --> 00:19:32,94 begin to see see I.D.'s in residential neighborhoods and fact I know that's being 261 00:19:32,95 --> 00:19:33,65 discussed by 262 00:19:33,66 --> 00:19:38,37 a couple of our residential developers to pay for as you said are more broad based 263 00:19:38,38 --> 00:19:45,17 but streets and other public infrastructure sewer storm water but the 264 00:19:45,55 --> 00:19:49,37 party you acknowledge that we have you here do you acknowledge that these 265 00:19:49,70 --> 00:19:51,05 organizations do take 266 00:19:51,06 --> 00:19:54,30 a lot of political pressure off and you don't have to go out and try to pass 267 00:19:55,01 --> 00:19:59,23 a tax revenue stream to address a particular situation you could have 268 00:19:59,64 --> 00:20:04,17 a Community Improvement District the city would have more control over and assess 269 00:20:04,18 --> 00:20:08,66 taxes within the area property taxes including to address for 270 00:20:08,67 --> 00:20:11,43 a variety there were things in addition the trend we have as 271 00:20:11,44 --> 00:20:18,21 a city and I think most cities have assessed based on benefit streets sewers all 272 00:20:18,22 --> 00:20:21,76 sorts of public improvements and this is really. Not 273 00:20:21,77 --> 00:20:26,41 a whole lot different than than what we have done for years for very specific 274 00:20:26,80 --> 00:20:31,40 purposes worried there was a specific benefit that could be assigned to 275 00:20:31,41 --> 00:20:35,61 a particular piece of property state law allows you to assess and in fact I think 276 00:20:35,62 --> 00:20:42,60 we did tax bills last night on the street so. There's no real difference well I 277 00:20:42,61 --> 00:20:46,80 don't see any difference either and I guess what I'm about to suggest is that I 278 00:20:46,81 --> 00:20:52,43 think you'll see the see ID is now becoming equally popular with Tea. Not wrong 279 00:20:52,44 --> 00:20:56,49 with X.-Plane want to look at how are we go are not messes that the same set up 280 00:20:56,73 --> 00:21:01,66 before it not always is there I'm not necessarily true critic that T.D.'s have 281 00:21:01,71 --> 00:21:07,19 largely run their course in Columbia that is there just isn't as Bill said very 282 00:21:07,20 --> 00:21:12,37 much aggregated retail space left that isn't it a T.D. 283 00:21:12,52 --> 00:21:17,68 You know when Justice Scalia was here given his lecture he was talking about how 284 00:21:17,69 --> 00:21:21,52 the stock market was catching his breath you know how ridiculous that sounded and 285 00:21:21,53 --> 00:21:26,39 they are catching their breath because right now we're overbuilt in retail and 286 00:21:26,40 --> 00:21:30,33 apartments and Office Office have solution and so the town is going to have to grow 287 00:21:30,34 --> 00:21:35,14 to absorb that but as soon as it does you'll see another surge of the is almost 288 00:21:35,15 --> 00:21:40,63 a statutory arrangement is changed but I think the next time around it would 289 00:21:40,64 --> 00:21:44,42 behoove the city to say don't do the T.V. Do a C. D. 290 00:21:44,46 --> 00:21:46,38 Let us have control but we'll work out 291 00:21:46,39 --> 00:21:52,22 a list of projects here and then T.V.'s will be less popular and cods will be more 292 00:21:52,23 --> 00:21:57,91 popular because the city will say so many words let us help you do this right. But 293 00:21:58,43 --> 00:22:03,34 in the context of that we'll have more much more control over it but right now on 294 00:22:03,35 --> 00:22:08,57 what grounds can a circuit judge deny a T.D.D. 295 00:22:08,61 --> 00:22:13,09 I mean our position is very very very limited he doesn't have 296 00:22:13,10 --> 00:22:16,69 a whole lot of secrets meets the statute if it meant to stand that disagreeing with 297 00:22:16,70 --> 00:22:20,42 you he has to approve it that's right so you're either going to get the T.V. 298 00:22:20,43 --> 00:22:26,53 Statute tinkered with in the state legislature to deny to developers the ease with 299 00:22:26,54 --> 00:22:30,85 which they are formed then well I think then I don't so yes him that the minutes 300 00:22:30,86 --> 00:22:36,05 believe in the cities of take and in fact we tried to do to have introduced last 301 00:22:36,06 --> 00:22:39,43 year was simply to change the process that you had to come and do 302 00:22:39,44 --> 00:22:44,23 a development agreement with the city prior to going to get your petition much like 303 00:22:44,24 --> 00:22:48,28 you have to do with mode you know if a state that's very well that makes 304 00:22:48,29 --> 00:22:49,52 a lot of sense as 305 00:22:49,53 --> 00:22:54,63 a practical matter though Bill you haven't had developers with T.D.'s who have sort 306 00:22:54,64 --> 00:22:55,70 of just gone off on 307 00:22:55,71 --> 00:23:00,77 a tangent without consultation with the city have you well I think yes we have well 308 00:23:00,78 --> 00:23:04,51 in your show you have I think we have that and so that statutory change when you 309 00:23:04,52 --> 00:23:08,93 have that happen can the public still find out anything about them and can they 310 00:23:08,94 --> 00:23:10,65 still be audited is there 311 00:23:10,66 --> 00:23:14,46 a way to get there start right now and then demand that you would that you clarify 312 00:23:14,47 --> 00:23:20,78 that none of these or any number go down you know. Well I'm not so sure about that 313 00:23:20,82 --> 00:23:26,36 are there one there are smiley I still have real problems with. What the city's 314 00:23:26,37 --> 00:23:28,36 going to be collecting the taxes here and there's going to be 315 00:23:28,37 --> 00:23:34,22 a development that's correct but we're funding in my opinion my humble opinion we 316 00:23:34,23 --> 00:23:39,43 are funding infrastructure that developers should normally pay OK Well we have 317 00:23:39,44 --> 00:23:44,61 a philosophical disagreement there I mean you are saying morally I'm saying legal I 318 00:23:44,62 --> 00:23:48,74 understand legally you've got the right to do it or we would probably have stood up 319 00:23:48,75 --> 00:23:55,52 and you know you know but. We had no real ability to do that and Bob and I 320 00:23:55,53 --> 00:24:02,36 had our real ability and this is really kind of what ticks me off is that. Our 321 00:24:02,37 --> 00:24:04,87 real ability is to approve the street plans for 322 00:24:04,88 --> 00:24:09,48 a local right away which we did we work with the developer got them approved and 323 00:24:09,49 --> 00:24:12,91 then found out that they were going to be funded by T.D.D. 324 00:24:12,92 --> 00:24:17,35 After a fact so that we had lost our handle to say oh wait 325 00:24:17,36 --> 00:24:21,73 a minute guys this isn't right you initially thought the developer is going to 326 00:24:21,74 --> 00:24:21,87 write 327 00:24:21,88 --> 00:24:25,52 a check for sure and that's the way it normally works we approve the plant we approve 328 00:24:25,53 --> 00:24:28,03 the plans and then the T.T.D. 329 00:24:28,77 --> 00:24:33,46 Was formed although it is true that legally there isn't anything wrong with that no 330 00:24:33,47 --> 00:24:34,50 illegally it's 331 00:24:34,51 --> 00:24:39,40 a hard one to have not already did is that all of us are paying through sales tax 332 00:24:39,57 --> 00:24:43,92 the bottom line is saying that's the same problem months by sales tax the bottom 333 00:24:43,93 --> 00:24:48,04 line is the consumer is always going to pay for all of that's right because it's 334 00:24:48,08 --> 00:24:54,19 all funded by sales taxes the city's major source of revenue is sales taxes so. 335 00:24:55,25 --> 00:25:00,93 You know eventually the consumer pays for all and if the consumer doesn't pay who 336 00:25:00,94 --> 00:25:05,32 or it is a set is up goes broke and one fact if you think of the case in which 337 00:25:05,33 --> 00:25:09,09 a developer as Bill was saying about this other project simply writes 338 00:25:09,10 --> 00:25:11,58 a check for street improvements which is not unusual we've got 339 00:25:11,59 --> 00:25:16,74 a number of users like that well that adds to the developer's cost and that cost 340 00:25:16,75 --> 00:25:21,56 has to be recovered in the rents from the project and ultimately the tenants and 341 00:25:21,57 --> 00:25:24,80 the customers of the tenants are going to pay for that then the free look and the 342 00:25:24,81 --> 00:25:31,37 reason we have T.D.'s is why well because I think that us as both 343 00:25:31,38 --> 00:25:36,86 communities have unfilled deeds for transportation to prove some think if you go to 344 00:25:36,87 --> 00:25:40,70 any city that I'm familiar with They've got 345 00:25:40,71 --> 00:25:47,18 a long laundry list of transportation projects that need to be done and so this is 346 00:25:47,19 --> 00:25:49,33 the shortest way that up quick 347 00:25:49,34 --> 00:25:53,42 a developer can say OK this may not be the highest priority but it's on your 348 00:25:53,43 --> 00:25:57,22 priority list and you know we're going to take this and we're going to fund it with 349 00:25:57,23 --> 00:26:02,37 this revenue is there any way that developer could fault and I mean that this arc 350 00:26:02,38 --> 00:26:07,10 and I say. This political and that they could default see that's that's the thing 351 00:26:07,11 --> 00:26:13,96 that needs to be stressed here when these improvements are made the developer puts 352 00:26:13,97 --> 00:26:19,62 up the money that's correct and the developer is gambling that the revenues little 353 00:26:19,63 --> 00:26:24,94 be generated from sales within that project will be sufficient to generate enough 354 00:26:25,02 --> 00:26:30,44 sales taxes that will pay off that debt and if that doesn't happen the developer is 355 00:26:30,45 --> 00:26:34,64 going to have to write the check for the unfunded portion so it's the it's 356 00:26:34,65 --> 00:26:39,46 a terrific economic gamble you know the one hand on the other hand if they know 357 00:26:39,47 --> 00:26:44,11 what they're doing they get the money but not really the money but they get 358 00:26:44,15 --> 00:26:50,27 interest. And Elaine it's very important to recognize that this is not into the 359 00:26:50,28 --> 00:26:52,33 city of Columbia this is 360 00:26:52,34 --> 00:26:57,74 a debt of this little political entity and we actually have elders created and 361 00:26:57,78 --> 00:27:02,09 nobody else so so the taxpayers at large if there were 362 00:27:02,10 --> 00:27:06,82 a default if the revenues from the sales tax fell off for some reason maybe we went 363 00:27:06,83 --> 00:27:10,04 into a recession or maybe the store just turned out to be 364 00:27:10,05 --> 00:27:14,38 a terrible place that nobody ever want to shop but that would never fall back on 365 00:27:14,39 --> 00:27:17,72 the taxpayers of called large That's right and it doesn't take 366 00:27:17,73 --> 00:27:23,77 a day's drive the development in certain directions and sat part of it to where the 367 00:27:23,78 --> 00:27:26,89 taxpayer you know this isn't smite not want to go in 368 00:27:26,90 --> 00:27:28,93 a particular direction but this might be 369 00:27:28,94 --> 00:27:33,82 a driver to go and particular geographic location or that where there are two big 370 00:27:33,83 --> 00:27:38,37 limitations first the money's got to be spent on transportation related projects 371 00:27:38,63 --> 00:27:42,98 and the second the way we're doing them the money's got to come from retail sales 372 00:27:43,23 --> 00:27:44,55 that means that a T.D. 373 00:27:44,56 --> 00:27:48,69 For an office project and make any sense there aren't any significant retail sales 374 00:27:48,70 --> 00:27:55,25 there T.D.D. For residential projects doesn't make any sense Likewise a T.D.D. 375 00:27:55,26 --> 00:27:59,15 For sewers or for storm drains doesn't make any sense because they're not 376 00:27:59,16 --> 00:28:04,24 transportation related so it's quite limited OK we've probably got less than 377 00:28:04,25 --> 00:28:09,12 a minute now I have to close any one last statement by anybody I don't think 378 00:28:09,13 --> 00:28:09,23 they're 379 00:28:09,24 --> 00:28:14,60 a bad idea and. They worked out pretty well for you Alpheus I think they're very 380 00:28:14,61 --> 00:28:16,15 good as well they're they're 381 00:28:16,16 --> 00:28:20,27 a way of getting things done much earlier than I was really hurt and I think Bill 382 00:28:20,28 --> 00:28:25,32 recognizes that although. My last point is that on the C I.D.S. 383 00:28:25,33 --> 00:28:25,51 If 384 00:28:25,52 --> 00:28:30,90 a city made those more attractive T.D.'s would fall by the wayside I think and and 385 00:28:30,91 --> 00:28:37,10 so I think that's where we'll will be headed as the climate continues to grow. OK I 386 00:28:37,11 --> 00:28:43,03 want to thank all of you for coming again let me get those names Bill Watkins Craig 387 00:28:43,04 --> 00:28:47,57 fan Matri and Dale what man have joined us this evening to talk about T.V. 388 00:28:47,58 --> 00:28:52,68 Days and probably you can get more information from me at any of them if you need 389 00:28:52,69 --> 00:28:53,52 it on T.V. 390 00:28:53,53 --> 00:28:59,74 Days and other various ways to finance projects thank you for joining us good night 391 00:28:59,74 --> 00:28:59,74 . 392 00:29:28,63 --> 00:29:34,95 We're. Sure. 393 00:29:41,02 --> 00:29:44,43 The faith.